Wednesday, October 28, 2009

What I Don't Understand About Muslims

Again and again, I hear Muslim apologists claim that the Qu'ran forbids any compulsion in one's choice of religion. Apparently, though, this is a one-way door, for someone who is seen to be a Muslim cannot convert to another faith without much threat of compulsion. The following two responses are irreconcilable to me, prompted by a question from a young girl wanting to convert from Islam to Christianity.

Respondent 1:
"(Say to the unbelievers) To you be your Way, and to me mine." (The Noble Quran, 109:6)

"Say, 'The truth is from your Lord': Let him who will believe, and let him who will reject it:.." (Noble Quran, 18:29)

"Let there be no compulsion in religion..." (Noble Quran 2:256)

"But if the enemy incline towards peace, thou shall also incline towards peace, and trust in God: for He is One that heareth and knoweth (all there is)." (Noble Quran, 8:61)

"Fight in the cause of God those who fight you, but do not transgress limits; for God loveth not transgressors. (The Noble Quran, 2:190)"

"God does not forbid you from showing kindness and dealing justly with those who have not fought you about religion and have not driven you out of your homes. God loves just dealers. (The Noble Quran, 60:8)

Respondent 2:
i cannot believe, thant you want to do this!

can you not see that very many people these days convert to islam?
people realise it is the only right religion, you should be happy about what you are.

and to be honest i would blame your parents because they have not brought you up as a proper muslim.

and if you think that everything you are doing is a sin, then you should try to see what you should do about the qur'an! go to the mosque. and stop doing all the foolish things like showing bits of your body, not praying, "thinking you are christian"....

i am ashamed for you.

you should ask for forgiveness because Allah will never forgive you if you convert! you will go to hell!

i do not know what to do with people like you, i just dont understand how i can help you, because you are mentallly disabled.

and yes allah will not be happy with you but no-one know hwta he will do to you, but you will pay for it if you convert

Anyone care to shed some light on this?


Fernando said...

Hi Letitia (The Damsel)... Isaw your question on "answering muslims" and, as a former muslim thate I am, I can speak off my personal knowledge and experience...

some previous things:

#1: is islam there's is not teh thing we call the "10 comandments": a muslim can kill, can lie, can theft (and so on) under special circunstances since thates preciselly whate muhammad did... in this case the important is thate a muslim can lie iff he thinks thate islam is being put in danger...

#2: the qur'an is not like the Bible... the Bible has an historical background and do difefrenciatte between whate is only descriptive and whate is prescritive... for instances: in the OT there are many descriptive narratives where people are killed butt there is also there (and more in the NT) the prescriptive rule not to kill...

#3: the islam thate existes in the western world is an "chrsitianized islam": an islam thate as, willingly or not, assumed some values off Chrsitianity... so: in order to see whate is the true islam one must put our eyes on those countries where there are no external or internal pressure to habe a different face from the one the true islam has...

#4: in the qur'an there are some verses thate were abrogates by others thate came after... the point is thate muhammad changes his mind several times on several topics... butt since it was saide thate the (pseudo)revelations from allah had no contradictions thate rulle off abrogation saide thate allah can change his mind whenever and whetever he wanted... in the case you're interested you shoulde know thate the more "pacific" verses on the qur'an are those thate muhammad told when he was not in a place off power; butt when he became an important milatary ruller he started pronunciatting the more vilent verses...

#5: the paralelism between the Bible is not the qur'an... it's Jesus Christ: both the word of God... the paparelism with the NT (for Christians) are the hadiths or collections of sayings from muhammad...

#6: whate the verse (from the older period off muhammad's liffe... the one where he had to amke compromisses...), for instance, off "there's no compulsion in religion" means (since its directed to muslims) is thate muslims do not need to feel compeled to leave islam when the social reallity pressured them to do so... butt then muhammad, according to the hadiths (thate remeber are the equivalent to the NT) saide many times thate whoever changed is religion must be killed...

[end part 1]

Fernando said...

[part 2]

justte some examples:

Bukhari, volume 9, #17

"Narrated Abdullah: Allah's Messenger said, "The blood of a Muslim who confesses that none has the right to be worshipped but Allah and that I am His Messenger, cannot be shed except in three cases: in Qisas (equality in punishment) for murder, a married person who commits illegal sexual intercourse and the one who reverts from Islam (Apostate) and leaves the Muslims."

Bukhari, volume 9, #57

Narrated Ikrima, "Some atheists were brought to Ali and he burnt them. The news of this event, reached Ibn Abbas who said, "If I had been in his place, I would not have burnt them, as Allah's messenger forbade it, saying, "Do not punish anybody with Allah's punishment (fire)." I would have killed them according to the statement of Allah's Messenger, "Whoever changed his Islamic religion, then kill him."

Bukhari, volume 9, #58

Narrated Abu Bruda, "Abu Musa said.....Behold there was a fettered man beside Abu Musa. Muadh asked, "Who is this (man)?" Abu Musa said, "He was a Jew and became a Muslim and hen reverted back to Judaism." Then Abu Musa requested Muadh to sit down but Muadh said, "I will not sit down till he has been killed. This is the judgment of Allah and his messenger," and repeated it thrice. Then Abu Musa ordered that the man be killed, and he was killed. Abu Musa added, "Then we discussed the night prayers .....

Bukhari volume 4, #656:

Narrated Ibn Abbas:

Allah's Apostle said, "You will be resurrected (and assembled) bare-footed, naked and uncircumcised." The Prophet then recited the Divine Verse:-- "As We began the first creation, We shall repeat it: A promise We have undertaken. Truly we shall do it." (21.104)

He added, "The first to be dressed will be Abraham. Then some of my companions will take to the right and to the left. I will say: 'My companions! 'It will be said, 'They had been renegades since you left them.' I will then say what the Pious Slave Jesus, the son of Mary said: 'And I was a witness over them while I dwelt amongst them; when You did take me up, You were the Watcher over them, and You are a Witness to all things. If You punish them, they are Your slaves, and if you forgive them, You, only You are the All-Mighty the All-Wise.' "

(5.117-118) Narrated Quaggas, "Those were the apostates who renegade from Islam during the Caliphate of Abu Bakr who fought them".

so... no doubt whatesoever thate the penalty to those who leave islam is indeed the dead... and iff sometimes those who leave islam are not killed is nott due to islam, butt to the pressure on islam not to be islam...

may God bless you Letitia (The Damsel) and your family...

Letitia (The Damsel) said...

Thank you, Fernando, for your insights! I am beginning to see that what is quoted by many Muslims is not what the Qu'ran meant.

If there is no compulsion for a Muslim to convert AWAY from Islam, there is surely compulsion to stay in Islam.

If there is nothing said about protecting non-Muslims, then someone CAN be compelled to convert to Islam.

So for Respondent 1 who quotes the Qu'ran "(Say to the unbelievers) To you be your Way, and to me mine," the words "to the unbelievers" are not really to the unbelievers (non-Muslims). They are really to tell the Muslim that he should not feel compelled to leave Islam because of anyone exercises power over him?

So Muslim apologists who say that Islam is tolerant are misrepresenting the Qu'ran at this point. The message is truly that the Muslim should ask for others to tolerate Islam, but Islam may not tolerate any other religion if Muslims choose not to. Is this correct?

If so, then that explains the current OIC move at the United Nations today. They are following the Qu'ran to the letter.

Fernando said...

Yes Letitia (The Damsel)... that's the originall meaning off the verse I quotted, and thates the meaning I was toghtte when I went from the Philipinnes to "study" in a madrassa in Indonesia in the 80's... butt thates not, eber, whate muslims say in the west...

may God help you and your family...

Letitia (The Damsel) said...

To be honest, I find this understanding of how a Muslim should regard people of other faiths quite disturbing and a little frightening.

If what you say is correct (and I have no reason to doubt you), then there are no moral or ethical restraints preventing Muslims from violence against non-Muslims, provided that such violence is somehow justified as 'protecting Islam.' Very disturbing.

As Christians, we are commanded to turn the other cheek and pray for those who persecute us. Jesus Himself told us that unbelievers will hate Him and hate us because of Him. People will attack Christianity, but we are to look past this and rely on the Lord for strength, not return persecution in kind.

If someone wishes to leave Christianity, we are to let him go. It is a matter for God to deal with his heart. We do not kill that person!

Thank you again, Fernando. I hope others will contribute their thoughts. I am learning a lot indeed.